Proportionate? - Sign the 'From Israel to Lebanon' Petition.

What did Condi say a couple weeks ago? Oh, right, that something was "grotesque" - specifically the idea that our little Iraq adventure had anything to do with the Lebanon/Israel mess. Nothing to see there folks ... keep moving.

Blair's justification for blocking calls for a ceasefire? It would only "make people feel good for a few hours" and would have no impact.

As the pictures show, not having a ceasefire is certainly making an impact alright.

And it might make people feel alive for a few hours, as well. So Blair no longer believes in the feel good factor, what does he think about the being alive factor?

This inaction is a direct condonement of and participation in the slaughter of innocent civilians. These 'leaders' have blood on their hands.

Not in my name!

In Bliar's defence if he were to call for a ceasefire it would be clearly hypocritical.

Our armed forces are still supporting the US permanent occupation of Iraq. There is no plan for the US to ever leave Iraq, otherwise they would not be building 100+ acre 'embassys' with runways and arms depots all over the country. But then we didn't object to the US building forward bases in our country so why should the Iraqis? After all American democracy is what the whole world aspires to isn't it?

We are also obstructing the Iraqi governments attempts at reaching a ceasefire and peace with their insurgent groups. The Iraqi government has declared the country to be in a state of emergency and is only avoiding the phrase 'civil war' because the Americans have threatened them.

Then we have Afghanistan, please don't mention the oil pipeline, only speeches about the evil of the Taliban are acceptable. We have done so much for that country since we bombed it into the stone age, hospitals, schools, employment, power, sanitation, oh sorry, we never got round to any of that crap did we because George wanted to give the money to Cheney and Halliburton to kill Iraqis.

Even in our own country we shoot people for looking a bit Moslem. The Metropolitan Police death squads operate with impunity playing Quake for real in our underground system and private houses. We have unofficially added a new crime under the terrorism act of 'Breathing whilst Islamic'.

Let's not mention any of those African countries where our Govt and Oil companies support oppressive regimes so we can steal their oil.

Never, never mention the Uzbeks.

So in all honesty can Blair call out the Israelis for doing what he and George have spent the last few years calling 'The War on Terror' ?

The pics. The gory pics of the dead. Blown to bits.
So far, Andy Ramblings, Dick Cheney, and ringverse have posted links to the orginal gory propaganda site.
Are you all the same person?
Are you sick in the head?
Are you losers?
Do you really expect to gain sympathy for your cause linking to "Gore Porn"!!!
Jeez, you are such ASSES!!

Gosh, that's me converted to your side. phatballedvoyager. I never realised that pointing out that children are being killed in large numbers was merely propaganda for a cause. Sign me up for your right-minded cause of true ignorance, please. I expect to receive my earmuffs and blindfold by return of post.

ringverse, I now realise, is the head of the Liverpool branch of Hizb'allah, while Dick Cheney is apparently not the same Dick Cheney as the current US vice-President, and is thus clearly untrustworthy, while Andy Ramblings is either Osama bin Laden or Bashar Assad, I'm not sure which, but your enlightened posts have taught me not to worry about that kind of superficial reality-based thinking.

phatballedvoyager, why don't you just fuck off and crawl back under whatever neo nazi rock you emerged from. If you really have nothing intelligent to say, then why bother?

In the Sunday Times this morning I read that Blair said something along the lines of, "This was started by attacks on Israel across the border from Lebanon, so that is what has to be dealt with".

OK in principle, but we need to go back a little further than last week. It seems to me that "this" was started by the arbitrary creation of the state of Israel. The great powers that did so apparently looked at their maps, saw a more or less blank area, and thought it would be a great home for the world's Jews. The people who were already living there didn't appear on their maps, so they ignored them. It seems a bit unfair to say, "We'll start from now - any injustices that happened in the past should be forgotten".

Unless, of course, the US government wants to look back no further than last week too. That would mean forgetting all about 9/11, and leaving the USA in the embarrassing position of explaining why it has invaded and occupied two sovereign nations, killing perhaps quarter of a million people in the process.

Gee Tom, now you know. It is propaganda. What's true is that your heros, those killers, are hiding behind women and children now, and having been doing so for years! If you think the Jews enjoy blasting through the innocent to get the filth then you are truely lost.

Neo Nazi?? I'm a neo now, and you're the one sticking up for Hezbollah which happens to be the most Nazi group around. Yea, yea, you're bright.

phatballedvoyager,

Your heroes are not adverse to hiding behind civilians. The IDF frequently use civilians as 'human shields'. Check out this, this and this.

Tom Welsh, is it? Bull. You're an Arab. Long winded, The great powers, the injustices, arbitrary creation of the state of Israel, the history. The signs are all there. Shall we discuss the Sioux too?
Face the facts, will you? Tom. You lost. Sadly, you have always been, and will always be losers. The proof, "killing perhaps quarter of a million people in the process.", only a loser Arab/Muslim would type such crap. Face the facts, and only then can you be liberated. And you won't have to hide behind phony names.

I'm not Welsh, I'm an Irish Jew (O'vey). Close though.

A-singing...

Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi,
Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri;
Ei gwrol ryfelwyr, gwladgarwyr tra mâd,
Tros ryddid gollasant eu gwaed.

...trip-traps off the bridge...

Hmm I think there was a little more to the birth of Israel than that Tom W - Jews were buying land from arabs from the turn of the century, in the 1948[?]UN vote where the state of Israel was created I think I am right in saying that the UK and the US abstained, the dividing up of the twice promised land [see the Balfour declaration] was far from simple or convenient. Remember, we blockaded Israel after the war, and built new concentration camps [in Cyprus?] for those trying to get from Europe to the promised land.

As ever, the western powers were far more concerned with looking after their own interests than shafting or looking after either the Jews or the Arabs... Both groups of people came pretty low down our priority list.

IMHO, the legitimacy of the State of Israel's actions since the state was created, and the legitimacy of the state itself are 2 seperate issues, and the two shouldn't be confused. [THough your average zionist/Israeli would dispute that obviously.]

But - I think you are right in your more general point, that to the US UK Israeli axis - history is a pesky inconvenience.

Davide Simonetti
Thanks for the links, but that site's obviously propaganda by "who knows who". I'm sure they have strong feelings and really want to help, but is it helping?
What about those Pali kids in Israeli prisons? You know, the ones Hezbollah wants back so badly. Boys is what they are. Those Pali-boys show up at check points with arms or small homemade bombs. Why? Because they want to go into an Israeli prisons. Why? It's better than living under the influence of Hamas and the other filths. At least in prison they get education, medical, food and they don't even have to become a body bomb.

"If you think the Jews enjoy blasting through the innocent to get the filth then you are truely lost."

Hmm phatballedvoyager, who has said anything about "Jews" - you appear confused, all Israelis are not Jewish, and all Jews are not Israelis...

B'Tselem is a respected Israeli human rights group. Just because their findings (based on research and evidence rather than opinion) don't agree with your opinions doesn't mean its a propaganda outlet. If they bring Israeli atrocities to light then, yes, they are helping.

Are you seriously trying to convince me that Palestinian kids are resisting occupation merely to enjoy the luxury of an Israeli jail?
Why do they get themselves killed then?

ringverse
Haha. That IS droll.

Yes Davide Simonetti,"resisting occupation" in this case means getting busted; going in the inside is better than staying in the outside. They really suffer in the hands of those guys, I hope they can escape.

phayballedvoyager,

Why is "going in the inside is better than staying in the outside"? Who is it who has starved the Palestinians, stolen their tax revenues, bombed them into the stone age, halted any assistance getting to them, refused to let them trade fairly? Is it any surprise that they resist? America, Israel and Britain wax lyrical about democratising the region and then punish the Palestinians for making a democratic choice. What kind of message does that send? And why do you think they voted for Hamas? Because they didn't realise how fortunate they were to enjoy the benefits of Israeli benevolence? And what sources do you have to support your implication that Israeli jails are like holiday camps in comparison to the dire situation that Israel has created in the occupied territories and that Palestinians are queueing up to get into them?

I suggest that it is not us but you who is the victim of propaganda here.

It is difficult to argue with people of conservative mentality (such as phatballedvoyager) because their opinions are not arrived at rationally: instead they have an emotional position which they justify with post-hoc rationalization. Thus, they make fallacious attacks founded on nebulous statements, jumping around from topic to topic whenever their argument begins to creak.

There is a good paper on the phenomenom here:

Political Conservatism as a Motivated Social Cognition
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/bulletin.pdf

poor phatballedvoyager - i feel sorry for him. You guys should be more supportive of people with physcological conditions.

Tom : "we need to go back a little further than last week. It seems to me that "this" was started by the arbitrary creation of the state of Israel."

Having just read this letter, I don't think we need to go that far back in history to explain the current conflict with regards to Lebanon and Palestine, except to provide the context for our understanding of the current situation.

The fact is that a similar "kidnapping" took place shortly after on the Lebanon border being the spark that ignited the conflict. Given the above letter, I wonder what other unreported events took place just prior to "terrorist activity" by Hezbollah.

...

The Cube : "In Bliar's defence if he were to call for a ceasefire it would be clearly hypocritical."

Nice to see that Kim Howells has laid the ground work for Blair to claim all along that he wanted a cease fire. The report that "the prime minister would stand by Mr Howell's comments" is most threatening.

...

phayballedvoyager : *comment deleted*

Seek help with MorlocksRUs, you know it makes sense.

Not sure what to make of Howells - on past form he's a credulous idiot (see comments on Iraq a few months ago), but this either shows that he's developed a bit of backbone from being in the unusual position (for a politician) of seeing the result of 'taking a tough line on terror' first hand, or he has swallowed the 'we're just going for Hizbollah' line, and was a bit surprised to find out that this wasn't reflected by reality. I favour the latter hypothesis, which in his case is probably a career-limiting move, and he can expect a word in his ear followed by a relocation to Northern Ireland or the Home Office.

The possibility that it might be an underhand bit of Blair diplomatic maneouvring can, I think, be ruled out.

Anyone else surprised by the Israeli army line that 'we're being nicer than the US and UK were in Iraq'. Like that's going to win us over. It's interesting to look at that as a coded attack on the US/UK governments, basically saying 'back off, we know where the moral high ground is, and you suckers ain't on it'.

Anyone know what the Australian government line on the Lebanese crisis is?

Just wondered what the frothingly ideological PBV, if he's still outside a padded cell, would make of this, from a prominent *conservative* commentator, Max Hastings:

It's a prime example of how Blair has rewritten the political map, that people like Hitler Hastings, Peter Oborne and Boris Johnson sound quite sane these days.

Davide Simonetti
Thanks for the post.

Have you ever noticed how well the Arabs/Muslims are doing in Israel?
Did you notice how happy the same were to find themselves inside the wall?
Who is it who has...................done all those bad things. Themselves. 100% their own fault. So, shed your guilt. It is NOT your fault

Dick Cheney, you ought to change your name to Red Herring since you're so up on fallacies and jumping around from topic to topic.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 23/07/2006 - 15:50.

Pauvre con!

Never mind them, what do you think of *my* post, old son? Love to hear from you, ciao!

Phayballedvoyager

"Did you notice how happy the same were to find themselves inside the wall?"

Er, strangely enough, no. They are treated as second class citizens and subject to dirscrimination in all spheres of life. Are you suggesting that the solution to the Middle East problems is that Israel should own the entire region so that once everyone is "inside the wall" they won't get massacred or starved?

"So, shed your guilt. It is NOT your fault"

Where did you get the idea that I blame myself for these problems?

It looks as though the petiton page has been taken down/broken, but the main site is still up.

Gee, Davide Simonetti, somehow the title of this organization, from your link, "The Arab Association for Human Rights" seems that it could maybe qualify as being an oxymoron! Thus, not a good source.
Just look at their quality of life compared to any Arab/Muslim country, it's huge, it's like living in Euro/USA, they're free, free to travel, everything. It's obvious.

Obviously, you aren't guilt-ridden, though it is strange that a non-Arab would spread such blatant Arab/Muslim propaganda. Why do you do it?

phatballedvoyager,

Unlike you, I don't believe that all Arabs/Muslims are fundamentalists or terrorists. I showed you sources from an Israeli human rights group and you called it propaganda, I showed you sources from Palestinian and Arab human rights organisations and you call that propaganda too. So I suppose you would call the BBC stories propaganda as well.

You seem to believe that anything that is not Fox 'news' is propaganda. Presumably that is why you won't answer Tom's post.

I can't help noticing that while we include sources to back up what we say (even if you do dismiss anything that does not support your point of view as propaganda), you make nothing but assertions and offer nothing to back your claims. I wonder why.

Dear smallbrainedvoyager,

"Sadly, you have always been, and will always be losers. The proof, "killing perhaps quarter of a million people in the process.", only a loser Arab/Muslim would type such crap. Face the facts, and only then can you be liberated."

A very American view point, any action, irrespective of morals, decency or international law is perfectly justifiable if you can win it. I seem to remember reading a justification not unlike this in Mein Kampf.

This statement is also interesting considering the extent to which the Israeli economy has been continuously propped up by economic aid and 'military aid' from the US. If we look at the balance of trade for Israel and take away the foreign aid from governments and 'investment' from pro Israel corporates the economy doesn't look so hot. Of course a failed economy couldn't possibly make Israel 'losers'.

"And you won't have to hide behind phony names."

Entertaining, we have to assume then that pha*balledvoyager is your given name, did your parents give you this name or did you subsequently change it by deed poll?

poor phatballedvoyager - i feel sorry for him. You guys should be more supportive of people with physcological conditions.

I've changed my mind... he's a phukin khunt.

phatballedvoyager wrote 'if you think the Jews enjoy blasting through the innocent to get the filth then you are truely lost'.

I don't think anyone's suggested that, though, have they?

The objection is that, in the course of conducting operations against Hezbollah, the Israelis are using indiscriminate and disproportionate force against the civilian population of Lebanon, not that they're doing it for kicks. If, for example, the local chief of police in Haifa decided that the best way to go after a group of dangerous and unpleasant criminals -- drug dealers or something -- who were operating out of a neighbourhood inhabited mostly by perfectly law-abiding Israelis was to 'blast through the innocent to get the filth', I very much doubt the survivors (or the Israeli government) would be much impressed by his doubtless sincere protestations that he hadn't enjoyed so doing one bit.

Ladies ladies ladies. Let's not have hissy fits.

DaVide, I don't believe that all Arabs/Muslims are fundamentalists or terrorists, just supporters and apologists. I'm right. Ask them yourself if they support such and such group, or just ask them why about something. You'll see. Of course, maybe you don't know any. I've polished off bottles with several myself, grand conversationalists, big meals, Cous Cous and Sidi Brahim.
I don't know how to post links on this site, I'll check up on it. Why do you need links anyway, just watch the news.

The Cube. Whatever. Thanks for the reply though.

Anonymous. Ta Guelle, encore.

SteveG. Those people are far from "unpleasant criminals", they have created terrorist fiefdoms where they produce terror. At any rate, even the BBC says that very few innocents have died.

Have you read this about Bakri Click?
Hahaha What a wreck!

Sorry. Link didn't work. Here's the thing;
The Sunday Times July 23, 2006
+ Post a Comment

Angry Omar sees the light
Rod Liddle
Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, everyone’s second favourite bearded barking-mad Islamist cleric, has had a remarkable change of heart. His appetite for bloody jihad has dramatically waned; he would now like to engage in nothing more strenuous than a cup of tea with his family back in Britain — who are, he says, terribly worried about him.

The man who from safe and agreeably leafy north London suburbia offered his continual support to suicide bombers and refused to condemn the attacks of 9/11 and July 7, all the while ranting against the perfidies of western civilisation and its infidel cockroach minions, now wishes to return to the bosom of Satan as quickly as possible.

*
Why the about turn? Marxists might call it an explosion of consciousness. But it is more likely the explosion of extremely powerful Israeli ordnance a bit too close to where he is holed up in downtown Beirut.

The good sheikh did not actually volunteer for the front line in Lebanon. He had fled there but vowed to return to Britain. Then Charles Clarke banned him from coming back and he chose to settle in Lebanon because he thought it an agreeable country, a halfway house between the West and the more medieval Islamic states. It was also one of the few places that would have him.

You might have thought Bakri Mohammed would have been delighted that here he was, at last, in a position to act in perfect accord with his relentlessly stated beliefs; a chance to gird the loins, strap on the old Semtex and make haste for the Israeli border. Bang! But no; what he did instead was plead, quite piteously, with the British government to airlift him (at our expense) to safety. It is all very well to cheer on the suicide bombers and the struggle to expunge Israel from the face of the earth — but one shouldn’t really be expected to take part in such dangerous activities oneself. Suddenly the British way of doing things seemed awfully attractive as the shells rained down. Far better to pontificate about Armageddon from a semi in Edmonton.

Bakri Mohammed was the “spiritual” leader of Al-Muhajiroun and, when it was disbanded, the two splinter groups which formed in its wake, Al-Ghurabaa and the Saved Sect. Both were proscribed by the Home Office last week, but the Saved Sect’s website was still full of the usual bile on Friday. Western democracy is “retarded and perverse”, it said, and kufrs await the day that “[you] are taken back to your Lord in an intensely painful way”.

There was advice for young Muslim wives: husband is always correct, never expect him to say sorry, never argue with him, don’t dare go to sleep before he does, accept that you are subordinate and be sure to stand near him when he is “wearing shoes”.

There was also invaluable advice from Allah about the crucial issue of nose-picking: he approves, providing you wash your index finger afterwards. As the sheikh cowered, his glorious message was still being disseminated. I rang Saved Sect about the nose-picking edict but there was no reply. Maybe they were down the pub.

Still, Bakri Mohammed’s hilarious discomfort, hypocrisy and cowardice have at least provided a bright spot in the deepening gloom which is Lebanon. I have tuned in every hour, every day, to find out how bad things have become and sadly, on the BBC news programmes (Newsnight and Today excluded), learnt nothing more than the inane and repetitious views of British holidaymakers about to be conveyed from Beirut to Cyprus. I know their views — and also what they are having for dinner, who will be looking after them, how long the passage to Limassol might take and the names of each of their pets back in Blighty.

I cannot remember the BBC ever having so badly misjudged the weight of a story, of missing its import and underestimating the audience. It is the very essence of “dumbing down”. Right now the continuous news channels have got what they always wanted, what they were in fact designed for — the third world war. And they are missing it all in order to tell us that a woman from Wilmslow thinks Israel has behaved in a quite ghastly manner but she’s looking forward to flying home and seeing Pete and the kids.

I have learnt more in 10 seconds from good, serious BBC correspondents than in the hour after hour of vox pops, all linked together by Ben Brown, the BBC News 24 presenter, with a concerned expression. Why does the BBC think the fate of a few thousand Brits very well cared for by our embassy and Foreign Office is our prime concern? Meanwhile, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed is excluded from this exodus. But if the route to Cyprus is barred to him, he could always head due north to the country of his birth, Syria, and see what sort of welcome awaits him there. They at least are said to want him, although not necessarily in the most friendly manner.

Caught between the Lebanon devil and the Syrian deep blue sea it is hardly surprising that he should choose neither, but plump for decadent Britain instead. Should have been a bit nicer while you were here, shouldn’t you, mate?

SO according to you twatballedvoyager 1.5 billion muslims are either supporters of fundamentalists or apologists! How the fuck do you know did you interview all of them! Sheik omar bakri are the few muslims nutters who had only a small groups praying and following him. Which society does not have their fare share of extremist and idiots ? You don't know anything except what the media has fed to you and the few muslims you met.

zzed.
Do you stutter? I hope not! pha-phapha-t-t-tpha.....could drag on. zh zh zh zh ed zhed zhed zh ed...
Do you seriously believe that there are 1.5 billion muslims!!
The jack up the number to make the cult look big. Basically, they hector the others into saying they're muslim. They say "yes" just to be left alone. I was dating an Ethiopian whose family had had to convert, if not, too many problems. I had a buddy from North Africa, he was being hectored by the ones in his "group of friends", the muslims are just there, a cousin of a friend, an uncle, always watching to make sure you "act" muslim. And they are scared shitless of them.
So you gotta be careful, they aren't all muslims. What I do is just ask them, "Are you Muslim?", if they say "yes" then I adjust my register or just ignore the a-holes.

So:

1) There aren't 1.5bn Muslims as a lot of them just pretend they are
2) We're in grave danger of being swamped by huge numbers of Sharia toting Islamic extremists

Am I the only one to spot the logical flaw in this argument?

I don't think logic enters into the 'reasoning' of Phatheadvoyager. There is only so much you can do. Until he responds to the other points made in this thread without declaring it all to be propaganda, and actually sources his ridiculous claims, I'm giving up. The word "troll" springs to mind.

Who said anything about "being swamped by huge numbers of Sharia toting Islamic extremists"? I don't think I did. Though, while you're on the subject. Are you afraid of that? Do you live in one of those places? Actually, I like the Arab/Muslim quarter, the foods tasty though there isn't much talent around. Anyway. Can you imagine what it would be like living in an Islamic country? What pits. No rights, no nothing. Live the lie.
I certainly do not think we will be swamped by Islamic extremists who happen to be total a-holes.

DaVide Code: Yes, I admit wholeheartedly that I am a troll. But it's your fault. You're so mushy and gushy. Not you personally, but all of you. You actually think you can reason with those bearded turds from the ROP. Those murderous thugs understand one thing "overwhelming power" that's it. Talk means nothing to them. Plus, flogging those gore porn pictures is more than apologizing, it's spreading the message and I still don't know why you do it. Why do you?

Why do you troll? Please seek help for it. While you're doing that, we'll carry on trying to fix the world. Someone's got to.

I still haven't heard the justification for posting those propaganda gore porn pictures of the dead, over and over again.
Embarrasing, isn't it?

funny how when condi went to lebanon she didn't mind the fact that the israeli bombing stopped long enough for her to get in and out of there .... a temporary cease fire from the israeli side so that her life could be spared.