New Labour's Caledonia Phobia

Urrrgh! - vote SNP? Puhlease - this is a single issue party, independence being their panacea for all ills. Add to which, they are always stirring the pot of anti-english bigotry and THAT needs no encouragement thankye kindly!

Personally I fancy an SLD/Green/SSP alliance - that would shake things up a bit!

Surely Blair would like to see the SNP get a majority. That would create a constitutional crisis, and he would be asked to stay on to sort it all out. He would probably stand down as leader of the labour party but continue as head of state in the interests of national unity and his position would be assured for some time to come.

Hopefully this is a worst possible scenario and it would be impossible for someone to be head of state without being head of a party, but judging by this mornings headline about the slave trade Blair will do anything that might help keep him in power.

Broon, Alexander, Reid they're queueing up.

Desperate stuff indeed.

See the full Blair speech from Oban at www.1820.org.uk

Capt Swing - SLD - you dont mean the Scottish Liberal Democrats do you?

It's beautiful. What now looks like the inevitable Scottish independence and subsequent sundering of the Union will almost inevitably result in perpetual Conservative government in England. Bring it on.

So what's the difference? We've had continual conservative (small c if not big C) government since 1979 anyway.

Capn Swing wrote:
Puhlease - this is a single issue party, independence being their panacea for all ills. Add to which, they are always stirring the pot of anti-english bigotry and THAT needs no encouragement thankye kindly!

Ah, always nice to see someone naive enough to believe Labour propaganda.

1. The point of independence is twofold:
   • The people of Scotland are grown up enough to make their own decisions (aka "Democracy" - you may have heard of it)
   • Those decisions will be in the interests of Scotland, not of anywhere else, nor of 'National' parents of Scottish parties
2. The general tenor of actual (rather than bogeyman) politicians who support independence is that should it happen, it'll reduce anti-Englishness, as then we'll have no-one to blame for our ills but ourselves, and that this would be A Good Thing. I heard Alex Neil on Radio 4 just this week saying he was all in favour of an English Parliament...

Have to agree with you Martin B, If people have examples of the SNP stoking anti-English sentiment they should quote them. There are none (or none I've witnessed). The case for independenc is based on a common belief that we could run our own country better ourselves.

Btw - I'm no SNP member or anything, but have to agree with Tommy Sheridans statement that “Independence is important because breaking up the British Union is a socialist act.”

Dear Skalland,

You appear to be the only place with even a modicum of political choice. An SNP victory would really upset the political applecart south of the border. Imagine the crisis for our three Thatcherite parties posed by a Scots administration with an even slight emphasis on social justice and progressive taxation. Of course, real power will remain in the hands of business elites, and the changes will only be slight, but it's still worth it, just to upset the pompous bastards that blight out lives in England.

actually i saw one last week. remember how newsnight had a car in glasgow in england flags and filmed it as it was repeatedly vandalised? well the SNP attacked the BBC for this whilst refusing to condemn the vandals who had been "provoked" by the flag on their streets.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6161100.stm

when there is abuse the snp always calls it things like "light hearted banter". my local mp margaret ewan said as much when i actually complained to her about racial abuse and so on.

"black bastard" = racist / illegal
"english bastard" = light hearted banter

I thought that was a gross piece of tabloid journalism by the BBC. Have you been to the Gallowgate where that stunt was pulled? Not exactly overbrimming with reasons to thanks the union for prosperity.

Not sure if your example counts as the SNP stoking anti-English sentiment though.

Did you think it was a great piece of journalism?

peacewisher said:

"...He would probably stand down as leader of the labour party but continue as head of state..."

Even though he probably thinks he is head of state, I don't think that Bliar has yet usurped Betty Windsor's job.

given the previous apocrophyal reports in the press of such cases happening all over scotland i'd say it was. it showed they weren't urban legends.

maybe its not the SNP actively stoking, but they are certainly failing to condemn and so are condoning by omission. the fact remains that the SNP call it "light hearted banter" and all that bollocks. i guess bernard manning is having a bit of fun too isn't he you fucking paki/niggger/wog.

imagine we have the bbc who put a car with pakistani flags on a street in burnley following reports of racist attacks that people there play down as urban legends. it gets trashed by skinheads and as a result the BNP attack the bbc... what would you say then? even if it is tabloid journalism you're using this as a strawman to try and refute the rest of it.

"actually i saw one [usual smear on SNP anti-Englishness] last week. remember how newsnight had a car in glasgow in england flags and filmed it as it was repeatedly vandalised? well the SNP attacked the BBC for this whilst refusing to condemn the vandals who had been "provoked" by the flag on their streets."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6161100.stm

No, that's an example of the SNP commenting on BBC Newsnight stoking anti-Englishness. The police are now investigating them. Perhaps you can find where the SNP "refuse" to condemn vandalism and also why the BBC Newsnight crew didn't report this crime?

Nice try though. Better luck next time.

Any other examples of the SNP being anti-English? Or will we drop this silly little smear?

"Even though he probably thinks he is head of state, I don't think that Bliar has yet usurped Betty Windsor's job."

I think Betty Battenberg has a nicer ring to it.

If Scotland declares independence they'll need to rebuild Hadrian's Wall. Not to keep the Scots in, but to keep a flood of English refugees, like me, out..! It can't happen too soon. Let's deprive England's rentier blood suckers of Scotlands resources.

Very obliging of you to step into my trap, MartinB. The point of independence is the notion that people in Scotland (notice that I didn`t say Scots, since the population of Scotland is very diverse) are `grown up` enough to make their own decisions. Well, lemme see - we`ve got local council elections, European elections, and Scottish Parliament elections which gives quite a substantial scope for running domestic affairs in Scotland, which have certainly taken a different slant to broader UK politics....

But it still comes down to making our own decisions because we can make OUR lives better, by ourselves, for ourselves. Bugger anyone else that happens to live just across the border or along - THEY dont deserve the wonderful life that WE`RE going to make for ourselves. Because we deserve it more than they do!

....which is the fundamental building block of neoracist nationalism. It's mean-spirited, its small-minded, it brings out the worst in people, greed and the urge to discriminate. I`ve seen and experienced anti-English bigotry at first hand and close quarters. Independence would set the monsters free, and anyone on this board who says not quite frankly doesn`t have a clue.

And if Scotland were to become independent, how much clout do you think it would carry in the face of ruthless global capital? Scottish independence won't alter that onrushing momentum but real change in Westminster might.

There ya go, said my piece. Now you can take yer best shot.

its not a silly little smear, it is the SNP accusing the victims of provoking racist attacks. are pakistanis in blackburn who support their cricket team by flying flags also provoking racist attacks? the SNP says people who use english flags in scotland are. why dont they condemn them instead?
by extension, not only is the bbc, but also anyone else who happens to support england, provoking and being silly according to the snp. scots cannot be responsible for their own behaviour when faced with the national insult of an englishman with his flag on his car, or wearing an england team shirt.
SNP have a large section of morons who turn a blind eye to all this. i knew margaret ewing personally and my god, was she stupid or what, she would say the most moronic things ever. how many local mps would play down racist grafitti sprayed on the side of a house? well she did. i remember one of her rants too about the english taking all the jobs in her constituency.
funny how the locals there have now changed their tune because of cutbacks to their airforce bases that are gutting the economy there. well she's dead now and maybe the SNP has changed, but somehow i think that viewpoint is still floating around a lot of it's members.
it's a pity there's so many apologists for racists here.

I think the need for Scottish independence is based on a couple of simple observations- the first, that Scotland has been to a large extent a colony of England; that the English ruling class have ripped off it's resources and used it as a strategic and military asset, without much concern for the fate of the population.

Nationalism, within this context, doesn't have to be a regressive or chauvanistic force. It can represent an attempt by people to regain control of their lives. At the cultural level Scotland has always been independent from England anyway. The move towards decentralisation should be welcomed. It's a counter movement from the trend towards homogenisation represented by corporate globalisation.

Accusations of 'anti English' bigotry don't always make sense. It can become a term of propaganda, like Anti-American. The English ruling class are our common enemy, if it's 'anti-english' to attack their hegemony, then I'm an anti-English, Englisher!

Captain Swing: "... and anyone on this board who says not quite frankly doesn`t have a clue."

I have no reason to enter this debate, but this does need saying - Captain Swing, that is an unacceptably arrogant statement that is not worthy of you. It is a shame because those few words diminish the weight of your entire argument.

While I can agree with some of Cassandra's comments re resources and strategic/military asset, I must strongly point out that yer basic, street-level nationalism is most certainly regressive and chauvinistic. As for Scotland being culturally independent from England...eh? Historically, there has always been cross-cultural fertilisation, at all levels, but you also have to ask - which culture are you talking about? Because C went on to talk about decentralisation countering the homogenising effect of corporate ultracommerce - yet Scottish culture, just like English or Welsh culture, cant be spoken of as if it were an homogenous thing. All nations, cities, even towns, are patchworks of communities and cultures, and it is our commonality and our empathy for our fellow human beings which stirs the pot of culture and keeps stagnancy at bay.

Anti-english bigotry, like anti-Americanism, stems from ignorance so we need more bonds and more communication and understanding (the very things that corporate ultracommerce tries to prevent), not less. And less is exactly what independence would bring about, as well as divisions in families and communities.

And I think that Cassandra is utterly wrong to characterise the `ruling class` (ah, what a quaint term), or governing elite, as English - power doesn`t care what hand wields it. Our common enemy are those who see us as the bewildered herd, regardless of where they live or who their antecedents were, and we should not fall for outdated territorial tribalism masquerading as some kind of right-on decentralisation.

Just a quick response to the Capt'n!

I agree that all culture is essentially global culture, and that we should encourage as much diversity as possible. The problem is that England has tried to impose an anglophile monoculture on Scotland through legal violence and commercial power. Independence should increase cultural diversity, not diminish it.

Is anyone seriously suggesting that the Indian independence movement should have accepted British dominion, and that cultural diversity has suffered since independence? On the contrary, independence was a victory for cultural pluralism and human rights. Should Indians have abandoned their struggle as regressive and isolating? Or Nicaraguans, Cubans..? The latter have been accused of 'Anti-Americanism' on numerous occassions. So what? It's a meaningless designation. All these movements were opposed to imperial domination and violence, not working people in England or America.

The culture I'm referring to in Scotland is essentially one based on the Gaelic language, it's literature and it's history, and Scotland's unique legal culture. It's not about chauvanism or superiority. It's about the survival of minority languages and the unique contribution they make to our shared humanity. No one wants to preserve these things in aspic, but to give them a chance to survive in a world of centralised power and conformity.

As for England's ruling elite, of course they care about whose running things - that's the whole point of institutional racism and crown perogatives. It's England's mercantile class that conquered much of the world to increase their commercial wealth and power. The process of colonisation began in Scotland and spread through much of the world. That this dynamic is now unravelling is something that every one should welcome.

Clout - hee hee that's a good one.

The Cap'n Heidbanger scrawled (and nicely brought us back on-topic for Blairwatch):

And if Scotland were to become independent, how much clout do you think it would carry in the face of ruthless global capital? Scottish independence won't alter that onrushing momentum but real change in Westminster might.

What, this kind of clout? The kind that leads us placidly into an illegal war and encourages terrorism against us? Or do you mean the kind that made our EU presidency into a joke?

The alleged 'clout' of the UK is the last cry of Empire-nostalgics. Funnily enough, many Scotland-scale nations manage fine without this self-delusion.

Dear God, the greatest hits of myths and excuses are coming out tonight. We'll be getting the "Scotland can't afford it" one next.

im sure i heard someone say democracy.Who's doin all the swearin then, this is England you know, our gov don't stand for that so be bloody carefull, you could find yourelf in Australia, with the other 3 million ex pats, yep this lot sure know how to kill a country.