Trolling in Tehran

Perhaps he's just playing to the gallery, why should he be held to higher standards than our own exalted leader?

At his monthly media briefing the prime minister said the Iranian regime was "deeply extreme"....

He called the Holocaust conference in Iran this week, which had speakers including an ex-Ku Klux Klan leader, "shocking beyond belief"..... "There is no point in hiding the fact that Iran poses a major strategic threat to the cohesion of the entire region," Mr Blair told reporters.

Of course, what the prime minister finds 'deeply extreme'(???) and 'shocking beyond belief' is hard to understand considering his own crimes and support for the blood and soil government of israel's demolition of the lebanon.

He has not piped up in pique about avigdor lieberman's pronouncements.

The silence of the leadership of mainstream Jewry in the world, in view of the legitimization of a person such as Lieberman, undermines the moral high ground they hold in the struggle against Israel-haters throughout the world. If a Jewish politician who aspires to transfer an Arab minority across the border can sit in an Israeli cabinet, why should an anti-Semite not sit in an Austrian government? Let's hear it for the Haiders.

Yeah, its standard operating procedure for the morally-challenged Blair to find someone`s words `extreme and shocking beyond belief` but to see his own actions leading to the death and agonising torment of 100s of thousands be quite appropriate, normal even.

Ahmadinejad is a strutting fool, but his people and country do not deserve to be bombed and irradiated on the say-so, hearsay or madeup lies of thugs in London and Washington.

I think the 6 million figure is greatly exaggerated.Not possible to kill that many people.3200 people every day for 5 years. imho.Still the Iran president must be crazy to hold such a conference.

I think he's playing to the gallery too. He must realise that he's not going to convince many people in the West other than a few Nazi nutters that such a well documented and witnessed event as the Holocaust didn't happen. Ahmadinejad is certainly batshit crazy, but I find it harder to argue that he's completely stupid (although he's doing a fine job in making it easier). After all, Iran has turned the mightiest power on the planet into a laughing stock and the Iranian leadership is now waiting for Bush to finally realise that he's going to have to go cap in hand and ask for their help. Maybe his so-called 'conference' is an attempt to make it that much more humiliating (if not impossible) for Bush if he does eventually seek dialogue with Iran or to provoke the West and Israel into launching a pre-emptive strike.

However, hosting a love-in for Holocaust deniers hardly helps his cause. By doing so he gives ammunition to Bush and Blair and makes them look sane in comparison. It would have been far more effective for him to acknowledge the Holocaust as the shameful episode it undoubtedly was and then ask the more pertinent question of why the West should punish Palestinians for the crimes of Nazi Germany.

It's a terrible shame that Ahmadinejad is so anti-Semitic (even though the term 'Semite' may well apply to him too). Iran used to have a vibrant and thriving Jewish community with a unique culture which is now sadly diminishing as Iranian Jews make a bee-line for Israel because of the regime's persecution of them. I don't see how that can help Ahmadinejad's struggle against Israel. By ethnically cleansing Iran he makes himself little better than Israel and can hardly claim any moral high-ground.

Perhaps he really is stupid as well as crazy, or maybe he is so sure of his strength that he feels he can behave any way he likes. If so, that too is unwise as Hybris is invariably followed by Nemesis. On the surface Iran's position looks strong but it is unknown just how secure the regime actually is, and no state can survive without allies. Despite Ahmadinejad's revolting beliefs and regime, I still think it would be reprehensible and counterproductive to attack Iran, either on the basis of the anti-Semitism or the real or imagined nuclear bomb programme. To attack Iran when all we've seen is posturing would be to fall straight into his trap. Ahmadinejad's support would increase and the inevitable retaliation would be justifiable, and that's before thinking about the many innocent casualties on both sides and even more Middle East chaos. I'd like to see Ahmadinejad invited to a fact-finding mission to Europe where a visit to the remains of Auschwitz and other Holocaust museums are on the agenda so that his mindless assertions can be challenged with real evidence.

Iran's a pretty demented state, but it's posturing on the history of the holocaust is nothing special - Zionist groups have attempted to prevent the Armenian genocide being recognised as a 'holocaust' for quite some time now, with equally dubious motives.

In fact holocaust denial is rather wide spread - America has murdered uncounted millions of Indians, the IMF continues to impose policies the murder millions through poverty/debt. Sanctions against Iraq killed 500,000 children. The list goes on; we don't have apologies, let alone justice.

Of course, on principle, people should be free to express their horrendous views. If there's one thing worse than holocaust denial it's the notion of the state as arbiter of official truth, a fascist/stalinist principle that we should all resist.

My grandfather survived the holocaust and I'm not a racist. I was given a book by my aunt, it was supposed to be a factual collection of letters, documents and eyewitness accounts regarding the holocaust. I remembered thinking that certain eyewitness accounts seemed unrealistic. There was one account of a boy in Auschwitz (I think) who snuck out to witness the gassing of Jews with this powder (zyklon b) that was dropped through a hole in the roof and the people all dropped dead.

I have read so much about the extermination camps and the gas chambers (at school especially). I have also seen videos recently which disprove certain aspects like zyklon b and gas chambers and they appear to confirm the suspicions I had regarding the eyewitness accounts when I was a child.

I think the holocaust happened and it was terrible but I also believe a certain amount was allied propaganda or over exaggerated accounts given by the victims of that tragic event. I also believe that the holocaust was used as an excuse to carve up Palestine and there are historical records which prove that zionist Jews funded Hitler.

I'm not an anti-semite but I do understand that the victors write the history and every coin has two sides. Those who question aspects of the holocaust are attacked and even locked up, the amount of effort put in to prevention of historical review implies there are some incpnvenient truths in there somewhere.

Has it not occurred to anyone that the whole thing might be a crock of shit dreamt up by US/UK/Israeli corporatists to justify their eagerly sought aggressive war?

I'm in denial about the holocaust conference. It never happened. Just like Ahmadinejad never said that Israel should be wiped out - he said the 'regime occupying Jerusalem should be wiped from the pages of history'. Not quite the same thing.

Not possible to kill that many people.3200 people every day for 5 years

1) It wasn't five years - Birkenau was about 1941-1945, so under four years.
2) 3200 people a day is easy-peasy if you have someone like Albert Speer running your war economy. Birkenau alone could kill many more than that.

The point is that the Holocaust was a nationally mandated industrial activity set up by the Nazi government with the full resources of the efficient Nazi German state behind it. Quite why this set up shouldn't be able to kill 6,000,000 people escapes me.

I've been to Auschwitz (where some of my Jewish relatives ended up in the war) - the thing that got me was the scale of the place.

Has it not occurred to anyone that the whole thing might just be a crock of shit dreamt up by US/UK/Israeli corporatists to justify their eagerly sought aggressive war?

So I'm in denial about the holocaust conference. It never happened. Just like Ahmadinejad never said that Israel should be wiped out - he said the 'regime occupying Jerusalem should be wiped from the pages of history'. Not quite the same thing.

I like the idea of taking Ahmadinejad to Auschwitz though.

The scale of Auschwitz was what got me when I visited the remains. It took the best part of half an hour to drive around the perimiter. Then after spending a couple of hours or so wandering around inside, I discovered that this was just one part of the complex and there were other equally vast bits of it further away. I think more people should visit what's left of the camp before it rots away. Once you see just how bloody huge the complex was you start to get an idea of the monstrous plan behind it.

Well said Antipholus.

Since Ahmadinejihad was NOT speaking in english, we are reliant on translations.
So a large element of caution, please ! The MSM uses the same catchphrases over and over, but that does not make them accurate.

Davide, the Man did make the point that the Palestinians are still paying the price for a problem created in Europe, which seems fair enough to me. I do remember that he was talking about the regime in israel, a particularly nasty and corrupt one, but would need some convincing that he is actually an "anti-semitic" exterminator.

. Auschwitz was a huge complex, agreed, but most of it was a workcamp. German industry used very large numbers of slave and imported paid labour (from france , too).

Norman Finkelstein has a site well worth a long browse. Someone else, above, pointed out the great variability in witness statements, some of which I've seen too. Any copper or criminologist will agree.

Qarsan. After half a million, or so, deaths in Iraq, I don't see any good reason for believing Blair and cohorts when they start pointing us towards more destruction and mass murder. Of course the Man is at least partly batshit, but look closer to home, too. Allowing ourselves to be lulled, or carried away by propaganda is not new.

Going back to 2003, the regime then, rafsanjani?, put out pacificatory feelers to Washington, which were rejected.

Overthrowing Mossadeq with terrorist bombs etc was really a good idea . Well done CIA and MI6.

Perhaps Zionist denial of the Armenian Genocide is about making sure that the Jewish Genocide is recognized as a totally unique event in history, so far outside of all other events that, by association, the Jewish State is a totally unique country outside of all international law.

Who knows? If it were so, then holding a conference about that, and about all the other genocides in history in a factual manner, of which the Jewish genocide is but one, would have looked a lot smarter than trying to argue that something that did happen didn't. A proper study of these events would show that Israel's behavior was an unusual and unnecessary consequence of the genocide, though its apologists tell you otherwise. There is no event that gives a country a license to bomb civilians who are in the way sixty years later.

Why don't they take their planes and bomb Germany instead of picking on people who didn't have anything to do with it? Apparently, if you have the wrong opinion about it, you are as complicit in the genocide as the Nazis, even if you actually haven't done anything. Politics as thought-crime.

Luckily, there's some good news from Iran:

"In Iran, a group of students disrupted a speech by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday. It marked the first major public protest against Ahmadinejad since he took office. The students screamed Death to the Dictator, set photographs of the president on fire and threw firecrackers at him. Ahmadinejad cut his speech short. As he left, students kicked at the car that carried him away.

Why couldn't he have held a conference on the CIA coup, and the crimes of the US-backed Shah including details of that government's cooperation with Israel? I don't know any, but the regimes had close relations. That would have been interesting, and annoyed all the right people.

Dang. It's so easy to come up with far better things to do than that joker does. We are plagued by idiots in office.

Cassandra , Jimmy Carter is now under attack for criticising Israel, and the usual dirty trick of anti-semitism is being used. US Professors Walt and Mearsheimer(sp?) wrote a little paper on the Israel lobby and got seriously attacked, too.

Your major point is against anti-denial legislation, and I agree.

I don't think the UK has this ? But the same process is already operating through the UK MSM, all the same.

Any human being, and particularly any historian, must be in the revisionist business , as we try to disentangle received myth from reality.

I've plunged into the murky networld of those who also call themselves revisionists but are in fact often deniers. Some of what they have to say, the evidence they dig up, is fascinating, as we realise History is a damn sight more complicated than simple division between goodies and baddies !

like the history of Collaboration in france, written at last by an american, the real history of what happened in the Holocaust is still under study.

However, what Norman Finkelstein calls the Holocaust Industry is working overtime. Accusing the unpleasant Iranian of every evil under the sun benefits who ?

Dang me, goatchurch, a brilliant idea. I believe the Man has a blog, so you could mail direck .

Those ole CIA types like Kermit Roosevelt have left plenty of records behind them.
Saw one from him the other day, 'it sure was the neatest coup', or words to that effect.

AHMADblog unfortunately all in farsi, so no idea if one can post to it.

Found it through goog,on a site describing him as Hitler jr.

Links here on those translations

Good article, too.

Firstly let me say I don't think that Mr Ahmadinejad is some sort of angel by any means and I'm sure there are plenty of people in Iran who don't like him or the leading Islamic lights but on the other hand:

1. I have not seen the video of the "green glow" confession. Even if it exists has it been "independantly" translated? Is it anywhere on the web? Is that just a Zionist propaganda piece? Any information gratefully accepted.

2. Of course I cannot be privy to his deepest thoughts about Jews but he met in New York with anti-Zionist rabbis under friendly enough conditions.

look here

I would also encourage people to watch the full video of his interview with Mike Wallace to see if you think he is "batshit"

look here

Now about the holocaust. Norman Finkelstein (a Jewish political scientist) who has been referred to above has written a book called "The Holocaust Industry" and he clearly states that the numbers of people who have cleaned up on reparations is outrageous. His mother who was in a Nazi camp said as much, and Raul Hilberg who wrote "The Destruction of the European Jews" agreed with the analyses Finkelstein gives. Con artists like Jerzy Kosinski prove people are not above outrageous lies about this subject just like in any other sphere of life so questions can and should be asked. The Zionists just put people like Finkelstein on the shit list:

shit list

I don't know the answers about the holocaust but here are some questions to look into. Curiously I cannot find David Cole on the shit list!

David Cole 1

David Cole 2

onethirdoftheholocaust

and for balance some knowledgeable bloggers who support the official version:

holocaustcontroversies

I would just say we should be free to investigate the sites and the denial laws that lead to people being imprisoned for expressing views are absurd. If their writings are fallacious then they can be exposed as such by evidence.

I think most people who visit a site like this would admit that officials of all colours are not exactly paragons of truthfullness!

Iran is not seeking an alliance with the Neo-Nazi fringe movement. What an utterly stupid thing to say, as is the BBCesque way you paint he picture of the conference as being a holocaust deniers conference. Keep talking qursan, Tony is becoming pleased.

It wasn't five years - Birkenau was about 1941-1945, so under four years.
2) 3200 people a day is easy-peasy if you have someone like Albert Speer running your war economy. Birkenau alone could kill many more than that.

easy peasy my arse.cloud cuckoo land.

I think maybe a million Jews at the very most may have beeen killed in ww2 which is still a shocking amount.still its all in the past and ultimately who gives a fuck anyway??

qursan says...
"The Iranian government dragged it's feet about this conference and many Iranian diplomats, journalists and citizens are profoundly embarrassed by their president. Sadly Iran's freedom of expression doesn't stretch to criticising the president."

Please provide backing to your idle claims that the Iranian govt. 'dragging its feet'. Secondly you are mirroring the BBC in your claims that Iranians not being able to criticise their president. Al Jazeera, covering the recent event, described pictures of Ahmadinejad being burned and also firecrackers being thrown. Amy Goodman on Democracynow.org, reported that the 'security forces' didn't take any action against the students (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/12/1459211&mode=thread&tid=25)

You then echo the BBC technique (wittingly or otherwise) and dismiss the Jewish presence an the conference. These Jewish scholars happen to be anti-Zionist - perhaps that is why they are trashed by the BBC and other sympathetic to the very anti-Semitic Zionist cause.

I wonder what evidence you came across that saw you wholeheartedly accept the official holocaust story? (granting you the benefit of the doubt that you are not just going with the flow of wholehearted holocaust faith here). The fact that you make no distinction to those that question the official belief of the holocaust and what is termed holocaust denial may in answers those questions.

I'd love to hear your opinions about Jewish fat used for soap, Jewish skin used for lampshades, that the concentration camps weren’t abhorrent criminal gulags, any documentation describing the formalized plan of what has become known as "the final solution", why Hitler had Jewish generals in his army (e.g. Luftwaffe General Helmut Wilberg), the pre and post war census data on the Jewish population, the mathematics/logistics of the killing of the commonly discussed "6 million" figure; the origin on these Jews, the history of the pro-holocaust death toll revisions, or why the information at judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm is wrong.

Please indulge us. Afterwards, then perhaps you can explain why you posted a false articles saying Israel didn't use uranium munitions in Lebanon (and why you don’t publish other false articles).

Thanks for bringing these issues out into the open.

1. the video was an encounter betwnne the president and a cleric and was shown on Iranian TV.

2. i have seen his interview, but do believe that he is batshit - something many Iranians agree with.

3. Finkelstein's book is the subject of controversy, but it is important to state that he is taking issue with how the holocaust has been used by zionists and does not dispute that it happened or the numbers who were killed.

4. david cole has retracted all his allegations, accepted the historical truth and apologised for his actions in holocaust denial.

furthermore, the holocaust is the most investigated and documented event in history. There are abundant records and testimony from thousands of people involved as well as the survivors.

the holocaust didn't just take place in a handful of camps but in whole swathes of europe.

may i recommend you read this

Some clarification on your "wiping out Israel" statement would also prove useful. What I mean is, are you accepting the western medias reportage of Ahmadinejads words on the matter, which were clearly delivered by western media to present the image that Israel was to be destroyed by military means? Additionally, are you so sure that the western interpretation which soundbited to "wiped off the map" wasn't by peaceful political means?

Given the ancient, respected and protected status of Iranian Jews (which includes the right to travel to Israel with apparent low level scrutiny) isn't it the latter case which Ahmadinejad was referring to when he was quoting Khomeini on the matter?

1. i stated that Iranian officials were dragging their feet and are privately tearing their hair out after reading various reports and discussions with representatives of the Iranian press.

2. Iranians do have great difficulty in criticising their president. he has closed down many reformist newspapers magazines etc. there is considerable curtailment ofr press freedom and many iranian bloggers are censored as is access to the internet.

3. the jewish presence at the conference comes from a tiny fringe organisation. i also note that no reputable historian was invited and a palastinian representative who wished to attend wasn't allowed to.

4. i do not dispute the generally accepted history of the holocaust in which 11 million were killed including 6 million jews. the evidence is overwhelming. it is not for me to prove the holocaust, history has done that, but for you to disprove it. all the attempts so far to disprove it have failed - even david irving at his trial admitted that the nazi's had 'killed millions of jews'.

5. the point on israeli munitions was replied to on the original post.

David Coles investigations.

Seeing as you mention David Cole, it is reported that he made a retraction because of threats made to him by Jewish groups at a time when he was ill and his mother exceptionally ill. You should read htttp://www.codoh.com/cole/cole.html and also http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04h_Cole.html. I find it strange that these threats are never addressed when his retraction is mentioned.

The retraction has strong parallels with confessions made under duress or torture. Is it the case that the ‘extracted confessions’ support the Zionist cause, then it’s OK?
Watch the video he made. The points in it are very worthy of discussion. You can see the video here: http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html

Conduct your own investigation. If at the end of the day the official version of the holocaust says 6m Jews were killed according to some satanic policy then fine and the evidence will show it. Decide for yourselves folks, the important thing is that you DO think about it and not just accept something that is used as the basis for the theft of Palestine and results in the filthy Palestinian holocaust going on right now.

Davide said "he's {Ahmadinejad} not going to convince many people in the West other than a few Nazi nutters that such a well documented and witnessed event as the Holocaust didn't happen." but like qurasan's falsity, the conference isn't to deny the holocaust and it’s not full of Nazis. There may well be people there who share Nazi supremacist ideals like David Duke is said to do, but what of, for example, those 'Nazi" orthodox Jews there? Let’s not stoop to BBC standards here!

I am worried about the mental paralysis anytime anything relating to Jews are mentioned on this site. Ahmadinejad isn't anti-Semitic at all. He's anti-Zionist, as indeed we all should be, because it’s an amoral philosophy. Zionism is attributed to Jewish hater and Jew by birth Theodor Herzl (http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story643.html and watch a video about Herzl at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1459280916999356707&q=zionism). It is the Zionists that muddied the waters between Zionism (which again is in opposition to the Jewish faith) and Judaism fo political mileage, something many are blind to. Now that I bring to your attention that anti-Semitism (which is usually incorrectly used because ignorant fools think it’s a fancy way to say ‘anti-Jewish’ and avoids having to use the embarrassing J word – well, if we dare say the word Jew, were at risk of coming to the attention of the “anti-semetic” labellers right?) is not anti-Jewish you have no need to fall foul of such incorrect language in the future.

After suggestion Ahmadinejad is a nutter, Davide says "it is unknown just how secure the {Iranian} regime actually is" - well not really as Ahmadinejad got approximately 62% of votes in the Presidential election in 2005, and hasn't apparently deviated from his pre-election politics, so its safe to presume he still commands about 62% support.

Davide also makes the horrendous claim that the Iranain regime is engaged in ethnic cleansing (a crime) and that the Iranian regime is persecuting the "once thriving", as he puts it, Jewish community in Iran. The BBC writes "About 25,000 Jews live in Iran and most are determined to remain no matter what the pressures - as proud of their Iranian culture as of their Jewish roots." So in terms of size I wouldn't say its thriving, in terms of stability and largely peaceful co-existence then I would agree. As for the serious claim of ethnic cleansing well Davide, all I can so is ask is "were your words a simple innocent misreading of the situation there?"

The history you say proves the holocaust was created by those with everything to gain by it becoming an accepted part of history, giving authorization to Finkelstein's description of the Holocaust Industry. The history did and still does, contain fictitious claims - for example the 6m figure. If you feel confident that this 'history' is free of bias and that it proves it, without giving us the slightest indication as to which history you are referring to, then that's your prerogative. I believe that the links above and questions they raise show this history is false and disproves the official tory of the holocaust. And please remember this is not to say no Jews were killed.

I'm uneasy at the way you and Davide dismiss some that {continually) question the holocaust and who draw different conclusions as being holocaust deniers.

You make reference to the Jews who associate themselves with the Neturei Karta group, and call them a fringe. Give me any group of people and I could divide them into fringes too, but their presence reveals how the perception that this was a conference for Nazi's is false. I am confident that ANY Jews would have been allowed to attend if the reason for attending was for the proper reasons.

I'm sorry to see that you're so supportive of the deniers. Historical evidence says they're wrong.

I note that you are providing 'evidence' from pro-nazi sites. That says it all.

Please take your revisionist bullshit elsewhere.

my problem with the 6 million is that it would be logisticaly very very difficult.Where are all the names listed so we can count them??where is the list??

link

It was difficult to kill so many people, but they did. There is ample historical evidence to show the figure is around 6 million. There was more to the holocaust than a few camps.

Or do you need a 'phone book' of the dead before you believe it happened? As a comparison I suppose the Hutu's didn't kill a million Tutsi's because there's no list of names and it seems difficult to believe so many people could be killed by machere's in such a short space of time.

Learn history, many of the answers are there

"my problem with the 6 million is that it would be logisticaly very very difficult."

The World War II was logistically very very difficult, but that didn't stop Hitler.

***********
"God, man, horse, dog, woman, rat, then Anonymous".

Considering that the Holocaust lasted from 1941 to early 1945 and German industrial production peaked in 1944 (thanks to Speer) why is there any doubt that the efficient Nazi state, with totalitarian control over everyone and everything in Germany plus a vast slave army *couldn't*, if it felt like it, transport and put millions of people to death? That's the weakest bit of Holocaust revisionism I've ever heard.

Why do the crimes of Israel seem to justify talking bollocks about historical events? The Nazis were (and are) efficient, murderous bastards. The Israeli government are murderous bastards, but incompetent ones largely reliant on US support, luckily. Ahmedinejad is, indeed, bonkers. He was definitely democratically elected, but that doesn't mean 62% of the people still support him any more* than 55% of the US electorate still support Bush. One hopes that the people of Iran and the US both wake up to the fact that they've got a nutter in charge.

* Memo to the UK/US governments - if you want to increase support for Mr. A, try bombing him. That'll do it.

Elie Wiesel was on Europe1 radio this lunchtime. Supporting sanctions against Iran, and 'whatever' more is needed .

The latter was not stated,outright,but VERY strongly implied.

Another tiny example of the drip-feed of Zionist and Co propaganda , preparing all our peoples just in case this becomes more shock and awe , surgical strikes.

Also a bloody good way of taking attention away from israel's actions and policies, and a multitude of other subjects we should be concentrating on in detail. .

Thanks to eh up , I watched the long interview of "A" with Mike Wallace. He came across, to me, as far less slimy than Tone. And less batshit, bonkers, whatever !

On the holocaust debate, I am of course a revisionist, the same way as I am about frog Collaboration in WW2 Occupation .

One thing is sure. The Israeli gov has succeeded in getting vast amounts of reparations out of Germany, including submarines capable of firing nukes .

Has anyone read a peoples history of the united states? The official line differs somewhat. I'm sorry to see Qursan's dogged conviction in the official history of the holocaust when there are so many valid questions which are stifled with such persistance rather than examined for what they are.

Sorry Qursan but I think you're being single-minded or you're worried about zionist hatemail.

The figure of 6 million was arrived at using similar techniques to the technique that came up with 655000 dead in Iraq.

The holocaust exaggeraters can't have it both weays!

655,000, surely?

Anyway, if both used the same statistical principles to estimate a value when there were no official ones (destroyed/not kept due to chaos) it's perfectly OK to accept them both, in fact not to accept them both requires you to prove that the methods are flawed.

This might help: Germany is to open records of 17 million people who went through the concentration camp and slave labour system

Thanks Tonys AKiller I was not aware of David Cole's (forced?) retractions. Just as you say it makes no difference to what he said in the videos.

Why is quarsan saying the Nazi holocaust is the most investigated event? How is this measured? Scientist hours? Investigative Journalist days? That seems to be a strange claim.

I am not being disingenous is saying I am not an expert in this field. I arrived (awakened) into the truth sphere through study of economics and investments. It convinced me that the top guys can and do lie about anything and everything.

Another couple of articles that have just been posted at
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

wrh1
wrh2

Bryant is a "white race preservationist" for want of a better phrase and so his writings may cause offense but that is no reason not to read. I am not saying I agree with everything he says but he makes good points to think over.

quarsan. Again you really must stop these false accusations. If they continue I can only assume that they are deliberate. I am not supporting deniers - which to my knowledge is not defined, but I take it to mean people who say no large scale death of Jews occurred in WW2.

My position and beliefs are quite clear. I support the claim that the official story of the holocaust is false, e.g. there is no way (certainly that I know of) that the value of 6m can be sustained*. I do not deny that Jews were persecuted, shipped off to concentration camps, were treated barbarically - mentally, physically, sexually and spiritually, some probably even executed in those camps. What I do think is that there is no evidence that there was a systematic/deliberate policy to exterminate world Jewry.

I also believe the purpose of the camps was for slave labour, to make munitions and so forth for Germany and its war effort. I believe that the gas chambers were used for de-parasitizing the prisoners. There may have been times that they were used for exterminations, but I see no evidence for this. A few cans placed in the rebuilt that the concentrations of zyklon-B were high enough to kill

It seems to me that the ovens were used to cremate the corpses of those Jews that died/were slaughtered because their bodies had some possible infections disease present on the bodies of dead inmates (Jews, POW's, Gypsies or whatever).

That is the conclusions I have reached from assessing the information I have come across in the last two years. It's likely that massacres of groups of Jews took place in parts of Europe as such crimes are in the nature of an invading military forces {Malmédy, My Lai, Haditha.......}. I notice you provide no attempt to disprove the sources I provided above, and most striking is the utter avoidance of addressing the issue of Zionism that is strangling Jewry, as is the 'Nazi-site' slur you attach to the sites I mention for example http://www.palestineremembered.com/.

Instead you attack the sites given (and of course, not their content) and you tell me not to discuss these issues on this forum - yet you are perfectly free to put your pro-official holocaust ideas to the fore. One surmises that your ego has built a fortress around what you have been educated to 'learn' about the holocaust, and that not a single second of logic or examination of that story will be entertained by the fortresses keeper.

If all that I say, and what others say, displeases your holocaust muppetry then fine but keep your false accusations to yourself. Your unquestioning belief of 6m dead is more unsustainable that my belief that the slaughtering of Jews in WW2 is grossly distorted. The contradictions and myths of the official story are out there and have been raised by others in this article - e.g. the contradictory accounts etc... yet, you don’t address them even one little bit. Instead, because of the unquestioning holocaust faith you have adopted, you instantly, without any contemplation or provision for thought and reason, brandish distorted and libellous accusations of being a holocaust denier.

If evidence turns up that says 6m were slaughtered then I'd have little or no reason to reject it {perhaps other than the footnote below:}

Footnotes:

Where Did Germany Get the Six Million Jews for the Holocaust?
taken from: h-ttp://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=2493
by Dennis Nix
World Almanac, 1940, pg. 129: World Jewish Population- 15,319,359
World Almanac, 1949, pg. 289: World Jewish Population- 15,713,638
World Almanac, 1996, pg. 646: World Jewish Population- 14,117,000
or
National Council of Churches 1930 - 15,600 ,000
American Jewish Committee Bureau of the Synagogue Council, 1939 - 15,600,000
World Almanac USA 1946 - 15,690,000
Statistical Handbook of Council of Churches USA 1951 - 15,300,000

* I have just read your post that mentions 'Germany is to open records of 17 million people who went through the concentration camp and slave labour system' {BBC article dated April 2006} but the BBC article does not say Jews were systematically killed, nor does it say how many Jews (and Russians/Slaves/Ukrainians/Communists/Gypsies etc) were killed. I agree it would be interesting to examine the information the German authorities ‘open up’ but I haven’t had that opportunity yet.

To start to bring this post to an end, I want to address Toms point of why Germany failed if it had such a large slave labour force behind it, you can have the largest slave labour force in the world, but if your military tactics are being defeated and resources/supplies cut then the slave labour is useless. Famous camp inmates liberated from the camps describe long stays in the camps and their slave labour work - some making rifles, which I think is mentioned in "Night" by Elie Wiesel when he ends up working in a factory.

You could look up Germar Rudolf's work. He wrote his PhD thesis on the chemistry of zyklon-B as well as the pioneering work of Fred Leuchter. Rudolf (and Leuchter) concluded that there were no gas chambers capable of killing humans at these camps.

Also, there are numerous reports that Prescott Bush (Monkey's Grandpappy) helped finance the Nazi's. IBM also has a questionable role in the holocaust. Why isn't the pro-holocaust rooting out the evil there? - Because it would help expose the Zionist (strongly coupled to the international bankers) role of the Nazis.

Interestingly if you think the gulags were death camps then why does the 'Simon Wiesenthal global search for death camp perpetrators' not spread into corporate America? Quote "zyklon-B was manufactured by IG Farben, which also operated the death camps. Wall St. owned over 40% of the stock of IG Farben, notably the Rockefellers. The US directors of IG Farben knew perfectly well what their company was up to."

Even after all this has been said there isn't one reason on earth (including the Jewish faith itself) why the Palestinians must pay the price for the suffering of the Jews in WW2. Jewish suffering does not grant licence to perpetuate a 60 year holocaust upon the desperate original inhabitants of Palestine in a state of brutal occupation where international law isn’t allowed a look in.

Jewish dead chronology:

Dec. 31, 1945 French Research Dept. for Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal 8,000,000

April 20, 1978 Le Monde (One of Frances largest newspapers) 5,000,000

Jan. 23, 1995 Die Welt (One of Germanys largest newspapers) 5,000,000

April 20, 1989 Kogon, Der-SS-Staat (Expert on III Reich) 4,500,000

Oct. 1, 1946 International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg document number 008-USSR 4,000,000

Nov. 24, 1989 Chief Prosecutor Majorowsky, Wuppertal File No. (12 js 1037/89) 4,000,000

July 26, 1990 Germany's largest Jewish Weekly, "Allgemeine Jüdische Wochenzeitung" 4,000,000

Dec. 08, 1993 ZDF, Germany's second largest T.V. network 4,000,000

Jan. 25, 1995 German paper "Wetzlaer Neue Zeitung" 4,000,000

Oct. 1, 1946 International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg document number 3868-PS 3,000,000

Jan. 1, 1995 German magazine "Damals" (Magazine about history) 3,000,000

July 18, 1990 The Peninsula Times Tribune, San Fransisco (USA) 2,000,000

July 25, 1990 German newspaper Hamburger Adendblatt 2,000,000

Jan. 27, 1995 German newspaper "Die Welt" 2,000,000

June 11, 1992 Germany's largest Jewish Weekly, "Allgemeine Jüdische Wochenzeitung" 1,500,000

Oct. 8, 1993 ZDF, Germany's second largest T.V. network 1,500,000

Jan. 23, 1995 German newspaper "Die Welt" 1,500,000

Sept. 1, 1989 French newspaper "Le Monde" 1,433,000

Feb. 2, 1995 Large German weekly magazine "Bunte" 1,400,000

Jan. 22, 1995 German newspaper "Welt am Sonntag" 1,200,000

Jan. 27, 1995 German newspaper "Die Welt" 1,100,000

Dec. 21, 1994 Institute for Contempory History, Semi-official organ of the German State 1,000,000

Dec. 31, 1989 Jean-Claude Pressac's book "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chamber" 928,000

Sept. 27, 1993 German newspaper "Die Welt" 800,000

Jan. 22, 1995 German newspaper "Welt am Sonntag" 750,000

May 1, 1994 Focus newsmagazine. Over 2 million circulation 700,000

Jan. 23, 1995 German newspaper "Die Welt" 700,000

Jan. 31, 1994 Jean-Claude Pressac's book "The Auschwitz Crematorium" 470,000

Jan. 8, 1948 Allied censored post-war German News Reels (Wochenschau Nr. 137) 300,000

Jan. 6, 1990 Frankfurter Rundschau 74,000

May 31, 1995 Former Director of the Institute for Military History at Freiburg, Hoffmann in his book "Stalins war of Destruction" 74,000

The source of the above list came from www.jewwatch.com. A site which has lots of interesting sourced and detailed information, but as the site carries the J word, will automatically be brandished as anti-Semitic. Having said that, I would be much happier with the more appropriate domain of zionwatch.com.

It is deeply unfortunate that the term "Jew" has become a synonym for the term Zionist. This is one of the successes of the Zionists. That is is able to politicise Jews into Zionism while thinking what they are doing is supporting Judaism. It is not. The occupation of Palestine is against the Jewish religion, which states that the Jews can only return at the coming of the Messiah. I don’t think the Messiah has been with us for nearly 60 years already, neither of course do the (Zionist supporting) Jews, but heck, what does apolitical religious instruction matter?

The information on that site is very interesting but never gets public prominence, not surprisingly because (a jewwatch says) "6 Jewish companies control 96% of the US media" and actually totally predictable if you watch "Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land " 1hr 19m documentary detailing the Zionist filtration of our news. {thank G-d for the internet} url: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=peace+propaganda

It is interesting to me that qursan posts articles which are clearly lies (Israel and Whiskey Pete url: http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/1442), and he offers not a jot of an indication that it might be a lie until he is challenged on it. Even then he does not Then he defends himself saying he was merely posting something from a different site (yet supplied no qualifying url) yet when I post factual evidence questioning the official line of the holocaust, my sites are dismissed as being Nazi sites (which qursan has have read in order to deliver that evaluation). He posts lies which cover up Israeli/Zionist crimes and that is OK, I post evidence which exposes Zionist crimes and he attacks it. There is a common word for that qursan. qursan Also says: "Please take your revisionist bullshit elsewhere." A spill-over from Toms article entitled "Conform or f*** off" perhaps?

Also on www.jewwatch is a very interesting article on the post 9-11 Anthrax attacks. An investigation into which sudden vaporised once it was realised that it was another inside job. Check this out:...
title: Jewish Suspect in Anthrax Attacks Meet Dr. Phillip Zack
url: http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-hatehoaxes-911-anthrax-terrorist-attack.html

Enjoy the coming weekend. Enjoy what the Zionist cannon fodder can't.

jew watch is run by a member of National Alliance a neo-nazi group which also publishes National Vanguard.

Whats with the outpouring of ad homini here? Why are the issues not being addressed?

After being scolded for naughty behaviour, what does Qursan do? Exactly the same thing!

So Qursan, by your own standard, we all should dismiss your writings as quackery becasue you are the poster of lies Re: Israel didn't use DU in Lebanon.

"He who Googles with one eye, Googles blind."
Ghost of Confucius '06.

"Frank Weltner's Personal Statement Including His Respect for the Jewish People and for All People Around the World"
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-history-jewwatch-frank-weltner.html

So quarsan, which number tickles your fancy?

My wife is German.Her Grandfather died in a Russian camp at the end of ww2 of starvation.
How many of the "6million" died of starvation and disease in various camps??

Noone i feel denies any mass death of Jews or others just the figures.People would like to know the figures and how.No fuckin spin please.just facts.

The German archives now being opened is proof that the history is still being researched and written, if any were needed.

Zinn's People's History of the US is a particularly good example of Revisionism .

Norman Finkelstein is worth studying, and disputed by outright Zionist propagandists. Former US senator James Abourezk very recently came out with his evidence on the power of that Lobby.

What we are seeing now is a massive campaign of propaganda.

Elie Wiesel was on franceinfo radio last night ( second time in one day that I heard) calling for a tribunal to try Ahmadinejihad for inciting to genocide, and chuck Iran out of the UN.

If Sarkozy had been Pres in 2003, france might well be in Iraq now.

anon very many German prisoners died in US and Allied camps after WW2. Another inconvenient bit of history which one has to look hard for.