Glorification of Fascism: Labour Support for Guantanamo Bay Part III - From the Horse's Mouth

I want to ask you about Guantanamo Bay. We know that you have described it as an anomaly, but with all due respect that does sound rather mealy-mouthed. There is a suggestion now from the Foreign Affairs Committee that you should make loud and clear your objection to Guantanamo continuing. Are you prepared to do that?

Prime Minister:

I think I have said really all I want to say on Guantanamo. I have said it is an anomaly, I have said it should end, and sooner rather than later. I don't think I have got anything more to say on it .

Question:

If I may just pick that up. Other people have been much clearer in government. Why are you pulling back from the condemnation that the Foreign Affairs Committee makes today. Do you disagree with them that Guantanamo Bay diminishes the USA's moral authority, do you disagree with them that it is a hindrance to the effective pursuit of the war against terrorism?

And if I may on Iraq, do you now accept that government may have underestimated the degree of ethnic tension in Iraq, and do you fear a descent into civil war?

Prime Minister:

Well on the first, look I will be very clear with you, I have said why I think that Guantanamo is an anomaly and should come to an end. I have said all that. I also think however it is important we never forget the context in which this has happened, which is the context of the war in Afghanistan and the reason for that was the slaughter of 3,000 innocent people on 11 September. Now it is important, of course, that we pursue the action against terrorism, maintaining absolutely our commitment to proper civil liberties and human rights, but it is also important that we remember those people that died in that terrorist act, and have some understanding therefore of the huge amount of anger that there is in America of what happened there.

Question:

Prime Minister, there seems to be an anomaly about Guantanamo, that you have an exceptional access to the Bush administration, to the American people and indeed to both Houses of Congress, and yet you are unprepared to use it to demand the closure that you want of Guantanamo. You are not really prepared to use it either to support the endless findings from the UN to your own MPs that there is torture and abuse in Guantanamo, torture in the form of water boarding, and doesn't this also go hand in hand with your reluctance to fully investigate rendition flights in which it is possible that at least one person, and possibly very many more, has been tortured in a process that had them pass through our air space. Do not all these three issues demand your usage of your special access to demand change of the United States?

Prime Minister:

I actually think Guantanamo fits into a different category and I have got nothing more to say on that, except I think it is clear both what I think and what I think should happen. On rendition, look let me just make one thing clear, because again there is talk about these 200 flights. There is no evidence that I know of that any of these 200 flights have been used for rendition. We have an arrangement with the US where they have to seek permission from us if there is rendition. We have disclosed to parliament the occasion, some years ago I may say, in which that permission has been sought and the circumstances of it. And it is not the case that the Americans say they are deliberately returning people for torture in countries, on the contrary they say they do not return them unless they get assurances about the treatment of those individuals.

But you know no-one has actually asked me specifically about the Amnesty International Report. I don't diminish any of these issues, I really don't, but I do just say, we have people for example here in this country that we are trying to deport. Now we hear an immense amount about their human rights and their civil liberties, but there are also the human rights of the rest of us to live in safety, and when people say to me, unless I can give absolutely cast iron guarantees, and they have all sorts of monitoring arrangements, we have got to keep people here who maybe engage actively in inciting terrorism in this country, I have to say I think we have got the world the wrong way round.

Now we will not return anyone to any country unless we get assurances about their treatment, but you cannot have a situation where we are expected to keep people in this country, without any limit at all, irrespective of what they do, and irrespective of the disharmony, disunity and sometimes active violence that they try and incite within our local communities. So in respect of rendition, as I say, before people print yet again that we have had these 200 flights and they are all rendition flights, as far as I am aware there is no evidence to suggest any of them fit into that category, and as I say there is a process and a procedure in place where the Americans ask our permission if they want to rendite. And I am not prepared simply to assume that they are breaching that undertaking, I think it would be very strange if they did. Now in respect of Guantanamo, as you know we got the people back here who are British citizens, the numbers have gone down significantly and I have said what I have said on it.

Question:

But Prime Minister, you argue you can only beat terrorism if you actually do abide by the rule of law, and your own judges, English judges have ruled that it is a legal black hole, it is an illegality and it surely does demand now, 5 years on, your personal action and commitment?

Prime Minister:

Well that assumes that there has been no personal action and commitment on it.

Question:

Would you tell us what you have done?

Prime Minister:

No. What I am going to say is what I have said, it is an anomaly, it should come to an end, we have said that on a number of different occasions, and as I say the British citizens who were there are back here. But you have just got to realise one thing, and I am sorry to have to say it so bluntly to you, I think it is sensible that we always conduct ourselves in a way that achieves the maximum support for our belief in democracy, and liberty and human rights. I do believe that. But you know people devote the most extraordinary amount of time in trying to say that the Americans on rendition are basically deporting people, or returning people to countries for torture, and people spend very little time in actually looking at what the threat is that we face and America faces, from terrorism and how we have to deal with it. And as I say, although I totally understand the issues raised in respect of Guantanamo, if I am right in saying, as I was told, that the report both of the FAC and Amnesty International went far broader, and we are talking about the deportation cases that we have got here, I have just got to say I think we have just got the whole thing upside down.

I do not see why we should not be able to deport people from this country who are not nationals of this country but who have come here to cause trouble, and I will get the best assurances I possibly can, and I believe those assurances will be kept if people return to their own country. But you cannot have a situation where people are just allowed to do whatever they want, and then say we have got to keep them here in this country and we cannot return them. And incidentally there is also in the Amnesty International report there is a case mentioned of a Palestinian, Abu Rideh I think his name is, who has complained of his abuse here and how he wants to go back to Palestine. He is free to go back to Palestine, the issue is whether we are able to remove people from here to other countries who have been engaged in behaviour here that is wholly unacceptable.